What is love worth? How much are you willing to spend to get it? How many products selling better looks will you buy? How much will you spend to prove your love? How much is someone willing to spend on you? What does that mean for your worth?
Anyone who’s read any classic novels should be familiar with the word dowry, which is money paid by the bride’s family to the groom. I.e. here’s some money for taking on my daughter… or the groom paying for a piece of property that happens to provide heirs. It was also expected to help take care of the girl in her new home, but aside from that the ways the money was actually spent varied widely by the couple, just as money does in relationships today.
Brideprice is when a groom’s family pays the wife’s family to make up for the lost amount of labor that is lost by her leaving.
When we try and date, we are always trying to sell ourselves. Here’s what I’m worth, look how amazing I am. I’m really valuable, better grab me before someone else does. We sell what we see as our positives, or perhaps lie or exaggerate our skills and traits.
If you were to go by online dating apps, every man is in the gym every day…. Or on a fishing boat. On a biological level, this is sending two signals. 1. I’m strong enough to protect you and any children we may have. Or 2. I’m a good provider of food, our children will not starve.
Every once in a while you get the one who is still trying to convince the world how cool he is…. And he tends to do it either on the back of a fast bike or by being overly artistic.
I’d like to say something about how girls try to make themselves seem valuable, but I only have my perspective, and that’s just one of laying out myself as the weirdo I am, which in itself is a subconscious tactic to set myself apart. I’m unique, a rare gem… you should try and grab me before someone else realizes I’m here. I value knowledge and curiosity. These are the things I put forward as my identity because they are the things I value the most. It’s just that different people find and hold value in different things.
Some girls hold value on physical strength and ability to protect, while others prefer someone who is a provider. Some don’t care as long as they are the center of attention.
Some men prefer women who are arm candy and status symbols because they perfectly fit into social beauty standards, and others prefer one who is nurturing and supportive. This is all where that anima/animus problem comes in.
Our expectations for the opposite sex often come from the experiences built up in childhood, as do what we value.
Where those values and priorities meet is where matches end up happening.
You love I.C.P?
I love I.C.P?
Yes, I’m using a jugollo jugalette example… because if two people love that group there are going to be some very specific shared experiences or views on what is of value.
In some parts of the world, this is still a very common practice, such as in India. I’ve linked a great Vox article that covers how the system in India works, and if you look at the things valued, they aren’t that different from the big factors that people look for in love matches, but the more overall value you have just link you to a better match in terms of what would be viewed as social currency. We want someone who is going to bring at least equal skills or understanding.
So let’s look at a couple of different examples of old-school look at my worth songs.
The first is from 1720 and called:
JAck met his Mother all alone,
to whom he did smiling say,
Ill go and visit buxom Joan,
because it is Holyday:
And being in my Roast-meat Cloths,
I hope she will like me well;
If Joan be kind, my heart, my mind,
to her I will freely tell.
My son shes lusty, large, and tall,
and thou art but young as yet,
Thy whole proportion is but small,
shell swallow thee at a bit,
And hide thee in her hollow Cave,
from ever glance of light,
Upon my life take her to wife,
and then thou art ruind quite.
I pray dear mother say not so,
you speak in your sons disgrace;
Behold my beard begins to grow,
and I have a manly Face,
With something else to pleasure Joan
according to Art and skill,
Since it is so, Ide have you know,
I must have a wife, and will.
Go to her then, with all my heart,
and when shes made thy spouse,
With half my Goods Ill freely part,
my weathers, & good milsh Cows,
My Geese, my ducks; my cocks, my hens,
my waggons, my plows my teams
Cause you declare in love you are,
and must have a wife it seems,
So soon as her discourse was done,
without any more dispute,
Jack to his Chamber straight did run,
and put on his Leathern suit,
His broad brimd Hat, and Ribbon red,
now when he was thus arrayd,
Himself he viewd and did conclude,
that he was a brisk Young blade,
Then he away to Joan did Ride,
and when he came there he Crys,
Sweet Jewel, wilt thou be my bride,
my hony my sweet piggssies,
To thee I have a present brought
a delicat gay gold Ring,
Then let us wed, and when we bed,
thou shalt have a better thing.
Then buxom Joan began to frown
and called him sawcy slave,
Saying that no such home bred Clown
her Maiden-head ere should have,
Why whats the matter, he replyd;
without any more adoe.
Ide have you know if hence I go,
I can have as good as you:
Theres Doll the shepherds daughter dear,
and Katy of high degree,
Who has at least three mark a year,
theyre ready to Dye for me;
And must I now be held in scorn,
and made a Redicule too.
By Buxom Joan it is well known,
I can have as good as you.
My mother she has horses, wains,
and delicate cows and calfs,
Geese, Capons, Turkeys, Cocks, & Hens,
and I am to go her halfs;
The Goods likewise must parted be,
as soon as I am Marryd too,
What say you now, you sawcy sow?
I can have as good as you
With that he went to take his leave,
and just as he turnd aside,
Joan stept, & catchd him by the sleeve
I was but in Jest, she cryd,
What makes you be in so much hast,
if me thou art come to wooe?
Wel never part, thou hast my heart,
Ill marry with none but you,
You might have told me this at first,
before you had Vext me so,
And then perhaps I might have Bussd,
my Joany for ought I know;
But you did so inflame my wrath,
that I in a Passion flew;
Theres Girls good store at evry door,
I can have as good as you.
Joan in a merry humour smild,
and took him about the waste;
Said prethee John be reconcild,
it was but a word in haste;
A kind and Virtuous Wife Ill prove
Ill honour and Love thee too,
Why then quoth he I do agree,
to marry with none but you.
Here’s what I love about this song, the mother clearly is saying, boy, this girl too much for you. In a metaphorical sense, this is about them being unequal, but it also has to do with the power of female sexuality, and the mother’s fears that this Joan would take total control of her son through her sexual prowess, or hide him away in her hollow cave…. Which can we just take a moment to appreciate this imagery and punnery? I’m not going to lay that one out for you because if you don't get it, you probably shouldn't be listening to this podcast.
There could be an argument that the mother was right, with Joan only accepting his offer after he sells her on all the goods she’ll inherit when his mother passes, and all the girls who would be happy to have him.
He’s laying out all the reasons he’s of value. He isn’t laying out his personal characteristics and joys that match well with Joan’s.
Now, there’s a lot more going on in this song in terms of the feminine masculine interaction as it’s clear that Joann is far more masculine than the boy, even taking “him about the waste.”
There’s a lot more to be said about this song in terms of gender roles and expectations, but I’m pulling the reigns on my ADHD tendency to ramble far off topic.
The main point is she only accepts him once he shows his value, and if you don’t think this still happens let’s go ahead and quote Salt-n-Pepper who said, “OK, Miss Thing never givin' up skins If you don't like him or his friends what about that Benz”
We still value cash in partnerships. Why else do we care that someone is dating a doctor, lawyer, etc. Anyone bringing in the cash.
So, let’s look at an example of a ballad that does a more direct comparison in the two kinds of courtship or love from the 1680s called:
AS Thomas and Mary did meet,
it was on a Summers day,
With words they began to greet
each other upon the way:
Pray what are you bound for the Fair
this Young-man unto her did say,
And if that you be going there,
i'le be glad of your Company;
He said that he did love her,
as a young-man a Maid should do,
And every Stile they went over,
he gave her a kiss or two.
But when they came to the Fair,
they merrily spent the day,
But meeting with William and Betty,
thus Thomas to them did say,
We'l drink before we part,
come give us a Bottle of Wine,
Since thou art with thy Sweet-heart,
and I am come here with mine:
The Maids were not unwilling,
as far as I understand,
But Will was for kissing and feeling
a Maid upon every hand.
And when they were full of Canary,
their stomachs began for to rise
Then Thomas began to court Mary,
with hand upon one of her thighs:
Said he art thou willing to wed,
for I have some goods before hand,
Besides when my Father is dead,
he promis'd me all his Land,
And this is a good beginning,
besides I have more at home,
You may get a little by spinning,
and I can both Weave and Comb.
My Mother will give me a little,
if I get an honest Young-man,
She saith I shall have the Kettle,
and likewise the Warming-pan:
My Granum will give me a Cradle,
which is both firm and strong,
Sister Margery will give me a Ladle,
these Goods comes in ding dong:
And this is a good beginning,
besides I have more at home,
I may get a little by spinning,
and you can both Weave and Comb.
Then William struck up to Betty,
and thus unto her did say,
Since thou art a Girl that's pritty,
i'le give thee a Fairing this day,
Why sit you so melancholly,
my pretty sweet Betty my Dove,
Though Thomas be all for Molly,
it's thou are the Maid that I love,
And this unto thee I will promise,
then hang Sorrow cast away care,
We'l be as far forth as Thomas,
before we get out of the Fair.
If that you will change your condition,
and that you do fancy a Man,
I pray Betty have no suspicion,
that you I do seek to trappan,
My tongue and my heart is united,
I scorn for to tell thee a lye,
Sure I have no cause to be slighted,
then prethee love do not deny,
Though we have a small beginning,
as little as nothing I know,
You may get a little by spinning,
and I can both Reap and Mow.
And thus we may live in content,
as they that had a great deal more,
Then out of the door they went,
and walked the Fair all o're,
To buy each other a Fairing,
as young-men and Maids should do,
And when they were home repairing,
they walked away two and two,
It was Thomas and Mary together,
with William and Betty so rare,
Pray what Man can say any other,
but that they had made a good Fair,
What Maid can there be so hard hearted,
an honest Young man to deny,
That is the cause many are parted,
without any reason why,
I would have you strive to prevent it,
or else it may be to your loss,
I know that you are not contented,
when you one the other do cross,
And not my new Song it is over,
for I have no more to say,
But wish every Maid a true lover,
that I have seen here to day.
The author ends his song by saying a true lover, but he doesn’t directly state which is the true lover, Thomas or William, but I want to argue for William because the courtship between Thomas and Mary reads like a financial agreement. Here’s what resources I bring. On the other end, William and Betty are to be reliant on their skills alone to build something together.
That’s the real root of lasting love. It’s two people working back and forth together to help support and strengthen each other in whatever way is needed. It’s about hard work internally and externally to build that relationship, that business, that house, that family… whatever it is. It’s not empty lustful…. I love you, I can’t be without you.. It’s a mutual respect and vision of the future that is openly communicated and compromise is always being met.
If you place great value of personal development, then you can see that this is where the true value in relationships lies… the support to grow as both individuals and a unit. A good way to look at how this works is to say that one partner is very much in their headspace all the time. They are always analyzing things, planning, researching, just think think think. So much so that they kind of forget that they are a physical being. The other partner is always working out or doing physical activities. They enjoy food and other physical pleasures. They are always in their body.
When these two learn to really work with each other, the potentials are amazing. The headspace partner is constantly pulled down to their physical needs and pleasures by the physical-based partner. The physical partner is pushed into thinking and feeling more and more as they continue to interact and communicate with the headspace.
I’ve just realized that describing someone as being a headspace probably sounds a bit negative connotation-wise, but I don't mean it at all. I’m definitely a headspace person… I mean this podcast is a child of my PhD research.
Sometimes someone has to pull me out of my head and push me out of hyperfixation.
It also makes me realize how fortunate I am to not be in a culture where issues with dowry put me in harm's way, which still happens in various places, and it’s important to raise awareness, so I’m going to share a bit about dowry deaths, and while not exactly the typical tone for this show, I think it’s vital to raise awareness of the problem.
If you Google Dowry deaths, you’ll have plenty to choose from, but the Indianexpress article I’ve linked in show notes does a great job of giving a solid overview of the issue. Some of these examples include a woman starved to death because her family hadn’t been paying dowry to them being set on fire and killing themselves after being tourtured. Particularly horrific is the story of a man who molested his own 14-year-old daughter and tortured his wife because of issues with dowry payment.
Technically dowry has been illegal in India since 1961’s Dowry Prohibition Act, but it is still hugely popular, and on its own I wouldn’t say it’s a bad practice. The violence towards women has more to do with traditional gender power structures, but regardless the numbers are horrific. India’s National Crime Records Bureau in 2019 there was a dowry-related death every hour. Every God damned hour.
That’s really all I’m going to say on the subject because digging into more details would involve getting far more grisly in tone that is good for ending this show on, but I encourage all of you to reach out if you experience any form of domestic abuse, mental or physical.
So stay sassy and saucy, and I’ll see you next time
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