Welcome everyone to Episode 19 Where we are looking at all the ways to woo those wonderful and witty wenches… what ever will we do with you? Always outwitting even the slyest of wooers.
Alright alright… enough alliteration. Let’s talk about the witty and wise cunning women. The ones who value knowledge over marriage, the one’s that fit the Athena archetype. We see this archetype throughout story and song, but she, like all archetypes, is also present in our history and everyday lives as well. Most of us can guess the nature of the Athena archetype by having a basic understanding of Greek myth, which is almost unavoidable in the west, but a quick review.
Athena was the Greek goddess of wisdom, military strategy, weaving, and courage. Athena was born by giving her father the worst headache possible and then literally ripping her way out his mind. Actually, as I’m recording, I saw some Reddit comments where people were saying the names that ChatGPT gave when asked about how if it had to pick a name for itself it would be Athena, and I thought… of course it did. Now, the only reason she was able to do this is that her father Zeus, Great King of the Gods, got so wrapped in his own fear and ego at the prophecy that Athena would become the lord of heaven that he just ate Athena’s pregnant mother Metis. Now, Metis and her role in the pantheon is important as she was the Titan Goddess of wisdom in things such as planning and counsel. This act essentially transmits the older Goddess Metis into a newer goddess of wisdom that owed her existence to Zues, guaranteeing her subservience to a father to enforce Greek social norms.
This of course may be why those in her archetype tend to be daddie's girls, and often strong in more traditionally masculine mental aspects such as logic and reason. Here’s where it gets interesting though because sometimes the Athenas of the world have to either learn late or re-learn the more feminine aspects of trusting their intuition through some very hard trials, typically because they have ignored their screaming intuition when reason couldn’t find the source of the intuitive alert.
The archetype's ego is based in being logical and wise, and in today’s world the shadow of that is the fear of being seen as the stupid girl… or worse… that crazy bitch. I’ll have to work in an episode on “that crazy bitch” through the varying archetypes, including the mother, but when paired with the Athena, we get characters like Katarina as seen in 10 Things I Hate About You, which is an important one for me because I was key age range when it came out. I first watched it as a young sophomore girl in rural Alabama who’d just managed to find all the Punk greats like The Sex Pistols and The Ramones, so the bits of feminist punk immediately grabbed my attention.
The Athena archetype, the smart girl, was always a siren song for me.
Ladies such as Elizabeth Bennet from Pride and Prejudice and Portia from Merchant of Venice, or blended with the wild woman of the wood such as Kat in both Taming of the Shrew and 10 Things I Hate About You. She values wisdom above everything, and for that wisdom to be used for the improvement of self and society. She understands on a very deep level that to make the world better, we must first make ourselves so. She terrifies many because she can smell bullshit and will not only not tolerate it, she’ll call you on.
Think of Professor McGonagal with this aspect, because in my mind, McGonagal exemplifies it. It’s that ability to call out the bullshit that enables her to create change.
There is the witty and wise Portia who isn't abused but comes to the rescue of her husband dressed as a young male lawyer. Jane Eyre whose quiet spirit taught me that power and strength of will weren’t always dressed in loud packages. All of them living by their own set of standards and expectations, outside of what society dictates they should desire and strive for.
Now, let’s get back to Kat though because she is a perfect example of what tends to happen when a man sets his sights on an Athena. Since she tends to smell bullshit, traditional methods of courtship fail completely. While some might call her actions playing hard to get, the reality is she is hard to get. She’s so consumed with her quest for truth and understanding that you don’t even register in her perception.
You are nothing in comparison to the vast complexities of the universe.
Hurt egos become determined to capture the Athena who has so easily dismissed them. That determination begins to slowly drip…drip…drip at the stone-like strength of the opponent, and it’s the easiest way to really win against an Athena figure. Pester her until she finally gives in and says… “Fine… fuck it. Let’s go”. She hasn’t been woo’d but subdued.
The other way, the more noble,is the suitor changes to meet the expectations of the Athena. Mr. Darcy doesn’t pester Elizabeth to death after she rebukes him. Instead, he takes his wounded ego into self-reflection and growth, as does Elizabeth. The whole reason the love is so strong by the end of that story is that not only did Darcy change and improve his persona based on Elizabeth’s rebuke, she does the same.
That kind of inward self-actualization is a long and hard process that takes much more strength of character than the simple pestering technique, which is why it is more common, such as in the first song today, which is an example of a recurring plot of boy tries to get a girl who rebukes him based on logic and common sense. He then slowly pleads his case over and over again until finally, with no real clear reason, she says yes I love you. It’s why I love the title of today’s ballad, “A Mad Kind of Wooing” which dates to around 1628, well before any organized feminist movements, but only one generation after one of the most powerful female leaders and Athenas, Elizabeth I. It’s written as a conversation and likely would have been sung as a duet, but since it’s just me in this little show I’ll have to do both parts and for that, you’re just going to have to forgive me. So, let’s look at the early 17th centuries views on mad wooing shall we?
Will
SWeet Nancie I doe love thee deare,
Beleeve me if thou can,
And shall, I doe protest and sweare,
while that thy name is Nan.
I cannot court with eloquence,
As many Courtiers doe:
But I doe love intirely wench,
and must enjoy thee too.
Spight of friends that contends
To separate our love:
If thou love me as I love thee,
my minde shall ne're remove.
Nan.
Peace goodman clowne you are to briefe,
In proffering love to me:
And if thou use such rusticke speech,
wee two shall ne're agree:
Dost thinke my fortunes Ile forsake,
To marry with a clowne,
When I have choice inough to take,
of Gallants in the towne,
The Eagles eye doth scorne the flie,
Shele find a better prey:
Therfore leave off thy dotish sute,
away fond foole away.
Will.
Why prethe Nan ne're scorne my love,
Although I be but plaine:
Where Will doth once but set his love,
he must not love in vaine.
For all you speake so Scholler-like,
And talke of Eagles eyes:
Know I am come a wooing wench
and not a catching flies.
Then ne're reply nor yet deny,
I will not be denaid:
I would not have the world report,
I twice did woe a maide.
Nan.
But twice and thrice and twenty times
You'l wooe before you win:
To match with ignorance 'mongst maids
is held a sottish sin.
Therefore Ile match if ere I match,
One equall to my spirit:
And such a one or else no one,
shall my best love inherit.
A man of wit best doth fit
A Mayden for to take,
Then such a man if that I can:
my husband I will make.
Will.
Why Nan I hope thou dost not take,
Thy Will to be a foole:
Thou knowst my Father for thy sake,
three yeeres kept me at schoole.
And if that thou hast spirit enough,
To yeeld to be my joy,
I warrant I have spirit enough,
to get a chopping boy.
Then ne're deny, yeeld and try,
Or try before you trust:
Let who will seeke for to enjoy,
for Will both will and must.
The second part. To the same tune.
Nan:
WHy I have those that seek my love
That are too stout to yeeld:
And rather then they'd lose my love,
they'd win me in the field.
Their skill in martiall excercise,
So much doth thine surpasse,
That should they heare thee sue for love,
they'd count thee but an asse,
Then be mute thy foolish sute
Is all but spent in vaine:
Tis an impossibility
thou shouldst my love obtaine.
Will.
Dost heare me Nan what ere he be,
Doth challenge love of thee,
Ile make him like to Cupid blind,
he shall have no eyes to see.
I thinke I have a little skill,
My armes be strong and tuffe:
And I will warrant they shall serve
to baste him well enuffe:
If he but starts to touch thy skirts,
Or in the least offends:
By all the hopes I have of love,
Ile cut of his fingers ends.
Nan.
How should I grant to fancie thee,
Whom others doe disdaine.
If thou shouldst chance to marry me,
how wouldst thou me maintaine:
Thou knowest not how to use a wife,
Thou art to homely bred:
And soone I doubt to jealousie,
thy fancie might be led:
Many feares urge my cares,
That I should carefull be:
I feare I match a crabbed peece,
if I should marry thee.
Will.
Nan I am plaine and cannot cog,
Nor promise wondrous faire:
When all my promises shall prove
like Castles built i'th Aire:
My true performance shall be all,
My word shall be my deed:
And honest Nan if I have thee,
you shall have all you need.
Clay hands be bold, say and hold,
Let us make quick dispatch:
If thou love me as I love thee,
weele straight make up the match.
Nan.
Then Will here is both hand and heart,
Ile love thee till I dye:
The world may judge I match for love,
and not all for the eye.
I had rather match a lusty youth,
Whose strength is now at full,
Then match a small weake timbred man,
whose strength hath had a pull.
Maidens all both great and small,
That hope to marry at length,
Doe not marry for bravery:
but unto strength adde strength.
The lines of “Therefore I’ll match, if ere I match one equal to my spirit, and such a one or no one” is a line that immediately should bring to mind Elizabeth Bennet’s words to her sister of ““I am determined that only the deepest love will induce me into matrimony. So, I shall end an old maid, and teach your ten children to embroider cushions and play their instruments very ill.”
In our song, it isn’t until Will is able to really match wits and arguments with Nan for an extended period that she consents and gives her love. It’s that last line that really enforces it though, “to strength add strength” because it’s what a good relationship is, an equal pairing where two people help build each other up in a million ways based on each other’s weaknesses and strengths.
Speaking of wit and wisdom, let’s look quickly at another similar song, but much newer, Hares on the Mountain, which is noted as first collected in the early 20th century by Cecil Sharp, However, there are arguments that place it as early as the 18th century. In its earliest forms it is much more like the last ballad and a back-and-forth between two lovers. Then, like most songs that remain popular, the ballad goes through a simplification process until we get to one of the most popular versions which were recorded by Shirley Collins in the mid-20th century. Now, personally, my favorite versions are those performed by Dublin-based Radie Peat of Lankum and Tennessee’s All Them Witches, but it remains one of my all-time favs and it’s because the speaker is that Athenian archetype, with no time for the foolishness as she says in the song, “Young Men are given to frisking and fooling, so I’ll leave them alone and attend to my schooling”.
So let’s look at the more modern version of this type of ballad and look Collins version from Folk Roots, New Routes, which is also the version sung by Radie Peat. One note is I’m not going to do the repetitions that would be there if this were being performed and I don’t have the time to learn every song I present, sooooo here we go:
Hares on the Mountain:
𝄆 Oh Sally, my dear, it's you I'd be kissing, 𝄇
She smiled and replied, you don't know what you're missing.
𝄆 Oh Sally, my dear, I wish I could wed you, 𝄇
She smiled and replied, then you'd say I'd misled you.
𝄆 If all you young men were hares on the mountain, 𝄇
How many young girls would take guns and go hunting?
𝄆 If the young men could sing like blackbirds and thrushes, 𝄇
How many young girls would go beating the bushes?
𝄆 If all you young men were fish in the water, 𝄇
How many young girls would undress and dive after?
But the young men are given to frisking and fooling,
Oh, the young men are given to frisking and fooling,
So I'll leave them alone and attend to my schooling
Sadly, for most of European history, schooling hadn’t been a real option for women, even among the highest of elites. With rare outliers like Thomas Moore famously daring to educate his step-daughters, there weren’t any kind of official group education or academic options for girls that weren’t embroidery or sewing circles.
That was until The Blue Stocking Society of Enlightenment England, which gave its name to become one of my favorite derogatory terms for nerdy girls…blue stocking. It was the go-to slur for any girl who cared for books over boys for a solid 2 centuries, and really only fell out of popularity in the past fifty or sixty years with 2nd wave feminism and more women attending university. In recent years it has been positively reframed by many modern feminists in a way that says… of course I prefer knowledge.
It always seems such an insane thing to me… to mock the desire for education and knowledge, but as someone who has been asked by both schoolmates, coworkers, and strangers… whatcha reading a book for… it was a fact of the culture around me, though in many of those cases, it wasn’t because I was a girl but because I would choose to spend my time with a book.
Madness I know.
So who were these original blue stockinged radicals? Well, the group was largely organized by two women, Elizabeth Montagu and Elizabeth Vesey. It was formed right in the middle of not just the 18th century but The Enlightenment as well, a period that was one of my first passions.
By 6th grade, I had already inhaled as much as I could from falling in love with the American Girl doll from the period of the American Revolution, Felicity. Thinking about it now, I’m sure hearing an 11-year-old rattle on about the American and French Revolutions and Rights of Man is probably a bit unnerving.
Now, regardless of my own personal passions, it’s a critical time frame in modern history as it’s the moment we shift fully into the modern. As a society, we shifted from focusing on theology and salvation to reason and empirical thinking. It’s when ideas such as those found in Paine’s Rights of Man begin to really circulate inside the conversations of the upper elites of British Society. Then, as it is now, it was cool to be a “nerd”.
Inside these circles, they circulated all those philosophical ideals that every American history class emphasized as the basis of our country. The same rights that future first lady Abigail Adams would push her future president husband John Adams to make sure to allow to women as well as men as they fought for a new nation and independence. Had Abigail Adams been born a generation or two earlier and in England instead of the colonies, she would have 100% been a part of that society. After all, they stood and believed in the same core ideas on the importance of educating women. They also weren’t anti-masculine, only for girls and women be given the same opportunity for self-improvement and education so that they had the tools at hand to make wise and capable decisions for themselves. It’s at the core of what one of the societies critics, the children’s author Anna Laetitia Barbauld, argued against when she said that instead of college, "The best way for a woman to acquire knowledge, is from conversation with a father, or brother, or friend."
Funnily enough, that archetype of the female betrayer is often just the Athena archetype that has gotten itself swallowed by its own shadow and insecurity. Emphasizing the daddy’s girl over the wisdom, and causing her to place all value on the opinion of men instead of herself. The masculine becomes the ultimate ruler when that happens, but that’s an entirely different episode, and if I start on that path we will be here another hour, and I won’t get this out for another 2 weeks.
The idea that a woman’s words and value might be judged the same as that of a man was so undeniably radical at a time when it was considered foolish to even teach women to read.
Speaking of learning to read and write and anger at English spelling conventions, we have to mention Bluestocking notable member, Samuel Johnson, the creator of the first real English dictionary, and one that was the standard until Oxford published its first one almost two-hundred years later. His Dictionary of the English Language and views on language were some of the first that took what is known as a descriptive approach, meaning he only aimed at keeping track of the current usages and spellings, not dictating the “the correct way.” This is still something that is debated among linguistics and English teachers alike. I’ve always taken a descriptive approach, but have to teach my students the proscriptive, or “correct ways,” so they don’t get eaten alive by some future pedantic uptight professor who needs to prove themselves by being super hard on things like dangling modifiers. Fuck off with all that…. Sorry getting away from myself.
I do however want to mention that Samuel Johnson is probably rolling over in his grave…at the fact he is most known today as the face of the classic painting “what?” meme. You know the one I’m talking about, white wigged old man looks like someone just walked in and spoke total nonsense to him. Or perhaps he’s chuckling at it all, who knows…If you aren’t sure the one I’m talking about look up Samuel Johnson meme and you will.
Finally, I want to end by talking about the main hostess and promoter of the society, Elizabeth Montague, an independently wealthy widow who had in her younger years written to a friend that while she did see the rationality and practicality of marriage, she had no desire for men or marriage and that she didn’t think it was possible to actually love a man. Despite that sentiment, she would eventually marry a man over twice her age and have one child, though he didn’t live past childhood with so many other children before modern science.
So instead, she devoted her life to promoting literature and literacy, and the most notable way she did that was by providing an open space that allowed not only men and women but those from different classes to mix minds in topics such as philosophy, early science, literature, politics, and every other cultural manifestation in between.
Or.. in other words the kind of thing that would be supported by Athena and those in her archetype.
When researching for this episode, I found the following quote from Elizabeth in regards to education, that almost still hits so hard for me as an educator. Just replace the word women with workers and phrase it around the state of public education.
“In a woman's education little but outward accomplishments is regarded ... sure the men are very imprudent to endeavor to make fools of those to whom they so much trust their honour and fortune, but it is in the nature of mankind to hazard their peace to secure power, and they know fools make the best slaves.”
And with that, I’ll bid you another sassy evening, and remember… stay curious.
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